|
DNA Stage 1 Versus K&N Stage 1 - THE FACTS
Ok ladies and gentlemen, I have just finished talking to Dino of DNA in regards to what he will use this thread for, and that is to show results of tests carried out by many testers, which will explain the performance differences obtained by these two filters, and finally to give some accurate details. on this long going debate as to which of the two filter is the better one.
Do not think for a minute that DNA would be biased in promoting his filters as the favourites ones because most of the tests have been carried out by third parties and independent magazines sources. Dino who will shortly come and give his evidences and please in the meantime wait for what he has got to show us before asking questions. Thanks Over to you Dino |
Cant wait to see this, personally before ive even seen it all i cant see there being a massive difference between the different types of filters but i may be proved wrong. :017:
and needless to say ive gone the other way and have a K&N filter stg 1 |
DNA Stage 1, DNA stage 2 & More Useful Info
9 Attachment(s)
Hi Guys,
Following your request I have finally put together a presentation of the DNA P-Y6E04-01 Stage 1 filter compared back to back with the K&N YA-6604 Stage 1 filter, a nd more useful information that will help you tune the XT 660 R /X. The results are very impressive and enlightening. All the air flow tests took place the same day on DNA�s Rotronics Computerized FlowBench, the test pressure was 1,5� inches of water and the results corrected to 25� celcius. 1. Presentation of the air filters: a) Stock Yamaha air filter, single layer paper non-reusable air filter b) K&N YA-6604 air filter, 4 layer cotton oil impregnated reusable air filter c) DNA P-Y6E04-01 air filter, 4 layer cotton oil impregnated reusable air filter 2. Air Filter Design (see attached files) a) The K&N YA-6604 air filter: Media material 4 layers of K&N cotton Number of pleats 11 Pleat Height 21 mm Active Pleat length 115mm* Pleat Pitch 6,36mm* Oil volume 7ml Total active filtering surface 53.130�mm* � * as measured from the K&N sample filter we purchased. b) The DNA P-Y6E04-01 air filter: Media material 4 layers of DNA cotton Number of pleats 9 Pleat Height 31 mm Active Pleat length 124mm Pleat Pitch 10mm Oil volume 16,3ml Total active filtering surface 69.192�mm As we can see the DNA filter has larger pleat height 31mm(K&N 21mm), the pleat pitch is 10mm(K&N 6.36mm), the amount of oil DNA uses is more than double, and the most important +30.23% more active filtering surface..! for the same application. At this point I must explain that the pitch of the DNA material is calculated taking under consideration many different variables; we use a specially developed algorithm and the final design varies from application to application. Even 0.1 of a mm can make a very big difference in airflow, speed of the air stream at the surface of the filter, turbulence and many more details that we can�t mention for obvious reasons. So already from the start we have 2 very different air filters! Let�s continue with the tests. 3. Absolute AIR FLOW tests: the filters are tested out of the air box on a custom made plenum; nothing causes turbulence or restrictions to the air flow (see attachments). The result is solely what the filter can give. a) Stock Yamaha Paper Air filter 70.42 CFM @ 1.5� of H�O b) K&N YA-6604 92.18 CFM @ 1.5� of H�O +30.9% over stock c) DNA P-Y6E04-01 122.4 CFM @ 1.5� of H�O +73.81% over stock +32.78% over K&N�? 4. Air Box AIR FLOW tests: the filters are tested inside the stock Yamaha air box, To eliminate the losses (restriction) that the stock throttle body could cause we used a 48.6mm throttle body without the butterfly; the absolute largest that could be connected to the XT 660 Rubber trumpet. Air box restrictions, shape, resonance, position of the air filter, if the design of the air filter suits the design of the air box and many more variables play an important role now. Also I have added the Volumetric Efficiency (VE), of the XT 660 Engine, that occurs for every configuration, if the tuner takes 100% advantage of the extra flow. a) Test 1: Air box & std filter & snorkel 46.53 CFM (1318 lit/min) VE=0.539 b) Test 2: Air box & K&N filter & snorkel 52.51 CFM (1486 lit/min) VE=0.608 c) Test 3: Air box & DNA filter & snorkel 57.19 CFM (1619 lit/min) VE=0.663 d) Test 4: Air box & DNA filter & Without snorkel 59.52 CFM (1685 lit/min) VE=0.690 e) Test 5: Air box & DNA filter & DNA Stage 2 filter & snorkel 79.19 CFM (2242 lit/min) VE=0.918 f) Test 6: Air box & DNA filter & DNA Stage 2 filter Without snorkel 79.89 CFM (2262 lit/min) VE=0.926 g) Test 7: Air box all open Without filters, side cover, snorkel (this test is for reference only the bike can�t be used on the road in this state) 88.6 CFM (2509 lit/min) VE=1.027 Finishing our detailed tests clearly the conclusion is That the DNA stage 1 filter is NOT the same filter as the K&N as the overall difference is Massive. Also you can see why the fueling must be adjusted when going stage 2 and why you can get away with it, when removing only the snorkel. I would like to thank to all the forum members for their attention, I hope everyone will enjoy the above info. looking forward to hear your comments and start a discussion. Best regards Dino Nikolaidis |
Wow, didn't know there is such a difference in design between the two. I am now glad I got the DNA in the first place.
P.S. Personally, I can't wait for the Stage III� |
Personally, I have to say that after reading Dino's post and see the attached charts and pics, my jaw has totally dropped in amazement because I myself up to this moment was under the impression that when it came to the stage one filter there wasn't much difference between K&N and DNA but this post has more than proved me wrong.
All I can say is :wow: |
Dino, thanks a lot for this essential information. For me this information is very usefull.
Thanks again! Marcel |
Yes, thank you for those results Dino - impressive!
Will you be doing a similar comparison test regarding the drum type filter for the XT660Z Tenere? xxx |
So,what are you waiting for?
Summer vacation in Greece,a small drop by at DNA's,chance to meet Dino,get your packs and have fun! |
Quote:
xxx |
and with the BMC filter? it is possible to know?
|
:cry[1]: I've just ordered the ruddy K&N filter and DNA 2nd stage lol
|
Quote:
Not all is lost, when you receive the K&N filter, do not open the box and put it up for sale on ebay as new and aim to get your money back then once you sell it, get te DNA one with the proceeds. |
Good thinking CaptMoto.
CaptMoto I know Kev isn't available at the mo but does anyone know if the bike will run ok without the fuel increase with the 1st and 2nd stage filters? I was hoping to get the PCv with Autotune but as you know they haven't released it fir the XTX yet. Has anyone heard how Kev is getting on? |
Not heard from Kev, hopefully all is well.
As for the filters, you might need to increase the Co2 level but the best way to check your bike without a Dynometer is to inspect the spark plug say after a good 20 min ride, if its too dry and burnt you need more fuel go up 10 on the dash if its too wet (unilkely it will be) then take it down 5 until your spark plug is a clean tan colour. Eventually the best way is to go the Power Commander way and all should be ok. I have known however of a lot of our members who have run both filters with just a tiny Co2 adjustment and no power commander in their bikes at all still obtaining top performance. |
Kev is back, quicker then he thought, now a left handed mouse operator & a bit slow on the typing.
The testing I did on the dyno showed that the bike will run lean with both filters on standard mapping. So far I do not know of any XT that has had it's motor damaged running just the filters without correcting the fuel mappimng. I would always recommend one to fit a Power Commander or similar fuel device to get the most out of the mod. The extra fuel & air will really wake your bike up. |
Thanks for the info guys, I'll check the plug after a short blast around and see how it looks. Once DynoJet starts selling the PCv I'll get that and see how she goes then.
Great to see you back Kev. |
Quote:
Thank you for your kind comments. We could do the same comparison tests for the XTZ if nessesary or post all the data for the DNA XTZ 660 stage 1 & stage 2 cover that we have already done. When we designed the DNA XTZ 660 stage 1 & stage 2 cover we used the same procedure and software, so the results are guaranteed, there is no reason to worry.. trust us! Regards Dino |
Quote:
Yes we can do the tests with the BMC if you can provide the filter. Let me know and I will send you our address, so you can send the filter. Best regards, Dino |
Quote:
I did similar tests on the Dyno on what HP do you get with each mod http://www.xt660.com/showthread.php?t=4509 |
Quote:
Just to give you some info the Raptor boys are flowing 130CFM with their +2mm valves, big bore, high lift cams & strocked +3mm throttle bodies, motors producing over 80HP, thats nearly double our 45HP & air flow of a standard XT. So when I see we only have max 88CFM left in the air box, this tells me for bigger builds we need a newly designed airbox. :YouRock: |
Quote:
Nice to see you are back again, Yes it is amazing how the data show what is happening in the real world! The stock air box and filter configuration has a Volumetric Efficiency of 0.539 @ 7400 rpm, Compared to the completely open air box without anything inside and 4mm plus throttle body that has a VE of 1.027( almost impossible for a naturally aspirated engine) , gives us a theoretical power of 85.75 hp! Ok this can only happen in a perfect world, but 80 hp is very close!! Can you please give me the following info concerning the raptor mods: 1. RPM the the motor rev to, will it be 7400 or more? 2. The cfm that you mentioned is what the head flows? And if yes at what pressure? (inches of water or millibars, would do). 3. The stage 3 DNA air box will have interchangeable aluminum trumpets(velocity stacks) to help tune the length, could you please specify the internal diameters that could be useful and cover the Raptor etc. mods? We are already working on the DNA Stage 3 air box, as soon as we will have the complete prototype I will start a new thread and post details, photos etc. Regards, Dino |
Raptor hits 9000rpm at the rev limiter thats why with their mods gain more hp than the xt660 motor
|
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
This was the build I was talking about. Quote taken for the Raptor forum. We had the opportunity to do some dyno tests the other day. The machine we were had the opportunity to test on was a 869 cc 11:1 compression Rocket Factory kit with a T-rex +1mm head, Megacycle X2 cam, KDS bored TB (47), Dynatek Fuel controller, RCI 650 injector, Dynatek Ignition (all runs done on curve 2 as it comes on the box), Monster Dual Drag pipes, and a Velocity Intake. It made a baseline of 74 hp and 62 ft/lbs. We pulled the head off and swapped it out for the new KDS race head. We put the same cam, rocker arms, even valve springs in the new head. The only thing we changed besides the actual head and valves was the throttle body and the intake boot (which had been port matched my Kenny at KDS to match the flow of the new head). We immediately dyno tested it (the Raptor never left the dyno, straps were tight the whole time). It made a base line of 79.9 hp and 62 ft/lbs. I feel like it was a great improvement from an already good running head, at over 5 hp and no significant loss in tq with a full race head. To give you guys some perspective on the numbers compared to something else…. Jade had his machine dynoed at Rocket Factory and made 82 and came here and tested it right after and made 72. This might be able to help make better comparisons to some of the larger build numbers from their dyno. We also had another customer who did something very similar and had similar numbers and results. I want to take the opportunity to thank Jade and Kenny from KDS for their help and for trusting us to be the ones to test this head on our dyno and trusting us with their work. The opportunity is greatly appreciated. It means a lot to us to be in the position to do this for these guys. Please leave the shop bashing and internet loyalty fighting stuff somewhere else. Please see our other thread on the intake testing. The first dyno sheet is the aboves build, the second is what can be done with a lot of money. I will find the head flow tests for you from the Raptor forum as they are a good read. As you can see the Raptor can rev to 9000RPM with a modified ignition device. Volicity stacks can work, many of the V twins run this set up to get more torque. |
DNA STAGE 3 XTX/R complete air box MOD
Hi Kev,
Nice thread, the Raptor one, so now it makes even more sense. From my calculations, if the head on the flowbench can flow 133cfm, and the engine revs to 9000 rpm the volumetric efficiency will be VE=0.96, a very high number for naturally aspirated engine, but yes it is possible. So we have stock 660cc engine revving @ 7400rpm with VE=0,539 produces 45 hp Highly modified 869cc engine revving @ 9000rpm with VE=0,96 produces?.... 80.15 hp We can see now that 80.15 hp, the theoretical power, is what these guys have actually achieved..! Bravo that is very good! Conclusion the Highly modified XT 660 X /R definitely needs a very well designed air box! And here DNA steps in….. Stay tuned. Thanks Dino |
What did I say to you guys? Seeing is believing, and with Dino on board in collaboration with Kev I can see in my crystal ball a lot of good things coming your way for your XT's.
Stay tuned :hae18: |
CaptMoto could you translate Kev's and Dino's funny words? they look like english but i didn't have a clue:YellowCrazy_J8GDC6:
Dose it mean that if we twist the thingy on the bars the round things turn quicker and we smile more and more? Guys all i can say is that "GOD YOU KNOW YOUR STUFF RUDDY WELL" lol, well done. |
pretty much so... i.e. the more you put in the more you get out :dink:
|
Thought you might like to see what the inside of the airbox looks like after the stock filter has done 12,000 miles, followed by three days looning around with other riders in Death Valley...
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/r...x/DSCF2554.jpg Guess I should have checked it each evening... (but was too busy drinking wine and eating barbecue beef... x) xxx ps. don't worry, I've cleaned it out and fitted a new filter now x |
Quote:
As I can see from the photo�..very bad news for you engine. It is also necessary to strip down and clean your �throttle body�. Mainly this condition will occur if you keep running with a very dirty paper filter or the filter is not sealing properly. The paper filters called also as �mechanical filters' or �go no go� filters are made out of a paper media that has small holes, for example 10 or 15 microns, all the dirt that is bigger than 10 or 15 microns will stay on the surface of the filter, all dirt that is exactly 10 to 15 microns will block the holes and all dirt smaller will go thru. All this happens in a perfect world and if you change the filter in time. Now what happens in reality, users remove the filter and blow it with compressed air..! thinking that the filter is cleaned, NO in reality the filter media holes are forced to open and finally you end up with a �clean filter� that has very large holes 30 to 50 microns or larger, that will allow all the new dirt to enter your valuable engine. With the XT 660 Z we also have another issue, with stock filter not being made in the proper tolerance or the �soft frame� material not soft enough to seal correctly against the top cover and resulting in conditions as the photo you have posted. Maybe it will seem like advertizing, but I would recommend to use a DNA filter and solve the problem. Regards, Dino |
Quote:
I may well be giving you a call re a filter and airbox top too... x xxx |
Glad that is not my airbox, I would have heart failure.:bricks:One worn out motor coming your way.
|
Quote:
xxx |
Hey JMo :039:, I wish my woman was as dirty as that air box of yours :seasaw::Gangsta2_9BI664:
|
Oooooh behave!
xxx (nb. any more jokes about me having a dirty box and there will be hell to pay with a pro-motion tyre lever oops upside your heads! x) |
Quote:
|
Quote:
The bike has performed excellently up until now (and continues to do so), and I would hate for it to become less reliable a companion. I would say that I have stuck to the service regime and used only genuine Yamaha air filters each time they have been changed, together with periodic emptying out. It was only after this last weekend when I removed the filter to shake it out, that I noticed this ingress of very fine dust. The Yamaha filters (and service schedule) are meant to be good for 12,000 miles - so either the filter has started to fail, or there is a sealing problem. Either way, I trust the warranty on this machine would cover any subsequent long term damage? I will mention the issue to my dealer when I return and the bike is due for it's 24,000 mile service. xxx |
When can i buy the dna one and two kit from this site?
|
for the time being send a pm to DNA and he will probably give you a discount.
But I am waiting to hear from him as to when we can fire up the engines.... |
Today I changed my k&n stage I for a dna stage I. You can feel the difference I can tell. As for offroad events I always use the original Yam side cover and remove the DNA stage II cover. So with only one filter element to pass air in this case, I want the best filter there is for my modded engine: DNA!
Thanks again Dino. ps, Will this stage III be suitable for offroad events also? Greetings from Holland, Marcel |
2 Attachment(s)
Went offroad last Wednesday with lots of fine dust and sand. Today I inspected the air filter case to be sure everything is ok. Looks great! The DNA has done a great job.
http://www.xt660.com/showthread.php?p=91202#post91202 |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 18:53. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.