ignition fuses blowing on tenere 660z
 

my 1.600 mile year 13 tenere 660z .cut out yesterday.it had blown a 10amp ingnition fuse..i replaced it but it blew immediately..the lights all come on and it cranks over fine but wont start...replaced the fuse again this time it ran ,switched on and off 3 more time running ok..then it blew again ...it either runs for a few seconds before blowing the fuse or it blows the fuse immediately...i have checked the battery connections and had a general look around the electrics...the relay was making a click noise before starting when it did start,but i assumed this was normal...the bike has not been altered its as new and well taken care off....no muddy water emmersion ect....any help greatly appreciated

There are quite a number of components take a feed off ignition fuse 4: starter relay (trigger), ECU, start inhibit relay (trigger), engine stop switch, instruments, immobiliser and cooling fan relay (trigger). The ECU, instruments and cooling fan relay are highly unlikely to be the issue, but it could be any of the causing the issue. However�

From what you describe, and the fact that everything works except the starting (and that it�s intermittent) would suggest it could well be the starter relay. This relay is not diode protected so any internal problems, such as quickly collapsing field coil voltage when de-energised, will cause a temporary spike (a �fly back� diode would provide a safe slow leak for the excess current). Fly back current like this can cause arcing and damage to the relay, reverse currents and blow fuses. The arcing can then cause a �sticky� relay contact, which might explain why it works sometimes and not others and is making louder than normal clicking noises?

Best thing to do would be to try and get a known good substitute starter relay and swap with the suspect one and see if the problem goes away. A new relay is about �50, so you�d want to make double sure before condemning the existing one.

thank you very much i shall try source a new one....and fit it..here's hoping

the part is coming in at �59.or i can buy a copy part at �39 from VE off sutton spares same part number ...however the fact that the bike did start two or 3 times and ran for up to 10 second before blowing the fuse ,would this still indicate a relay fault...could the power spike come into play 10 or more second later?....sorry but pretty crap at electrical stuff..cheers

It could. Particularly if the relay's points are sticky it may not be releasing quickly either. The starter relay does a lot more than just the starting too. All the power from the battery goes through it (and the main fuse) and it provides feeds to fuses 5, 6 and 7 amongst a lot of other things such as the regulator/rectifier. So there quite a lot of potential for the starter relay to cause trouble.

However, I must emphasise what I said earlier, that your symptoms "would suggest" the starter relay, in other words, it isn't definite, just very likely to be, which is why "borrowing" a relay would be a good move. It could be any component I have mentioned in the last couple of posts! But the starter relay is what I'd turn to first.

thanks i appreciate your help
...thanks again

My friend thinks it may be an ignition coil...

It could be, it's another one of the multitude of components through fuse 4. It is pretty easy to test the coil if you have a multimeter to hand. A fault causing a short/blown fuse is most likely to be in the low tension/primary side of the coil. However, the fault could just as easily be in the +ve supply wire to the coil making contact to earth.

To test the coil primaries, unplug the connector and connect your multimeter (set ohms not K ohms) across the terminals for the primary windings (low tension) on the coil. It should be in the range of 3.4 - 4.6 ohms.

To check the secondary (high tension) windings, connect the multimeter (set to K ohms this time) between the primary terminal with the red/white wire and the conductor inside the plug cap. It should read between 10.4 - 15.6 K ohms.

And again.thank you..there is a relay from a 2006 XT660 for sale on e bay from a breaker at 15 pounds.do you think this would fit .even as a temp in order to help to resolve the relay functionality question...cheers

By the way I am in the picos in spain currently (not on the bike ..sadly) so I cant try your v helpfully suggestion unroll my return next week.but thanks again.frank

hi.just checked out my primary and secondary ignition coil ,,and although it is a budget meter i am getting the following
primary ..should be 3.4-4.6.......reading 4.9
secondary ..should be 10.4 -15.6...reading 23.1

maybe the ingnition coil is faulty?...still awaiting delivery of a new starter solanoid

Well, those readings are out of spec, but wouldn't necessarily cause a short and blow a fuse. Higher than normal resistance is either windings of the coil usually mean a poorer than normal spark, difficult starting, rough running, misfires, poor economy etc. They do cause higher current levels, but small increase in resistance isn't necessarily going to generate over 10A to blow a fuse. If the coil was blowing the 10A ignition fuse you'd expect to see a short in the primary windings and either no resistance at all or a near infinite reading (depending of the nature of how the windings have failed)?

Then again. your problem is intermittent, so testing isn't always going to show up the problem?

hi thanks again for your prompt reply...i fitted the replacement relay unit..bike started fine and ran for a minute then i blibt the revs a few times ..up to about 3k and the fuse blew again..i put in another fuse and it blew immediately....same as happened with the origional relay...so i can discount that...oh well back to the drawing board

Will the fuse stay intact if you start the bike and leave it at idle for several minutes? Does it only blow when you rev it?

Have you checked the charging voltage? Put your multimeter (set to 20V DC) across the battery terminals start and rev the engine. See what sort of readings are you getting?

yes if i leave it for a while the bike can run at tickover so far i ran it for about a minute .stopped it ran it again for about another minute on tickover then reved it.the fuse blew and replacement fuse blew immediately when i restarted it...this has been the pattern ,on one attempt it ran for about 20 second then blew without reving...i will take a reading soon and report my findings...i have removed the tank and cant see any indication of worn or abraded wire ,all looks as new as it should be..thanks again for you help in this matter

hi ...put the tank back on and tried to start it yesterday it blew the fuse straight away..tried again today and it started ran it for 30 seconds i stopped it then started it again and it continued to run allowing me to take measurements across the battery...reading 12.70 pre start up...then upon staring at tickover climbed quickly to 13.66/13.77 revved it to 4k and it read at 13.91..done this several times over a couple of minutes then it blew the fuse...??????

Right, so it isn't a regulator/rectifier fault then. :eusa_think:

It's definite that it's fuse 4 blowing each time? Not fuse 5? And you've double checked the injector wiring hasn't rubbed through on the upper RH frame rail?

I'll have to sleep on this one and see if I get any further inspiration...

That's it its official i am a twit!...all along you have mentioned fuse 4 never picked up on it ...it is in fact fuse 5 the 10 amp ECU fuse that has been blowing all along...i am so sorry ...but does this clarify things a bit better

ignition fuses blowing on tenere 660z
 

Right then... If it isn't the injector wire that's worn through in the frame where it comes out from the main loom under the tank, then I very much suspect that you have a dodgy fuel pump (or possibly fuel pump/FI relay). This would explain why it runs for a bit and then dies. Fuse 5 is the fuel injection circuit.

no wear indicated at loom for injector wire...so you think a faulty pump or relay would blow the fuse immediately and sometimes after running for a short time...i had a huge panic in case it was requiring a new ECU �700 plus other no doubt expensive bits n bobs

fuel pump tested and working perfectly

should i remove the fuel pump and check the filter ...in case this is offering resistance..i see you have shown this can be done ..and i note to be carefull and not break the houseing as it is expensive..i am not sure which one is the FI relay to check it ?

How did you test the fuel pump? Did you remove the connector and connect a battery up to it (+ve to the red/blue terminal and -ve to the black) and then checked to see if it operated?

What you can do in addition to that is either connect it to the battery with a 10A fuse in the positive feed you're using and see if it blows, or if you have a multimeter that will measure up to 20A, connect the feed through that and see what current it is drawing. A pump may well operate, but if there is an internal problem (electrical or mechanical) it will draw a lot more current than it should do.

The FI relay is located here:

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/a...psvizgdxoi.jpg

It can be unplugged and tested with a multimeter set to measure resistance. Connect the brown wire's terminal to positive probe and the red/blue wire's terminal to the negative probe. There should be NO continuity at all (the multimeter should read 1). If there is any continuity the relay is knackered.

If there is no continuity after the above test, next check the continuity again but this time with a battery positive connected to the red/black wire's terminal on the relay and the battery negative to the blue/red wire's terminal. There should now be continuity between red/blue and brown. If there isn't the relay is knackered.

Be careful in the above tests to differentiate between blue/red (blue with red trace) wires and red/blue (red with blue trace) wires!!

Yes that is how I tested the pump with the tank detached from the bike entirely and pumped the fuel into a container I stopped and started the pump a few times it ran well and quietlly..I will test it again useing your suggested method.and test the relay also...thank you very much again

Hi the pump is drawing 8amps....there is no continuity across the brown and red blue wires..couldn't do the other test as I don't have a probe/ connecter small enough

According to the specs I have for the pump, the current draw should be more like 5A when directly connected to a 12V supply (less when the engine is running and system voltage is 13.2-14.0V).

• Operating pressure: 15-90psi
• Flow Rate: 160 L/h at 43PSI/3bar @ 13.5V
• Current: 5.0A @ 12V

Bear in mind that fuses, although marked with the current that they will continuously pass (at a standard temperature) without blowing (continuous rating), it is still good practice not to allow the continuous current to exceed 75% of the fuse's rated value to accommodate momentary current surges that might cause the fuse to fatigue over time or blow unnecessarily (nuisance blow). So a measured 8A may over a short test period on the bench may well blow the bike�s fuse in operation as there will be other electrical loads, plus anything that causes increased resistance in the circuit such as the pump getting hot in use, or poor/weak connections/earths may will tip it over the edge.

There only five things in the circuit supplied by fuse 5 are that could be at fault:

• Fuel pump relay
• Fuel pump
• Fuel Injector
• Diagnostic socket (draws no current unless plugged in or earthed)
• ECU (nominal current)

Now if you�ve thoroughly checked the wiring (particularly that to the fuel injector), you�ve tested the relay as best you can and there�s nothing shorting out the diagnostic plug +ve to ground, then the fuel pump is probably the most likely candidate? They are not expensive if you just buy the internal pump, open up the casing and replace it. There are plenty on ebay for between �20 and �40.

relay checked all ok injector tested reading 12ohms.so ok...done another pump bench test this time i made sure there was enough fuel to draw through..reading 11.3 amps...then the fuel ran out and it was reading 8 amps as in yesterdays test sucking air...put an in line 10amp fuse but it did not blow even at the 11.3 reading

I'd be mighty suspicious of a 5A rated pump (at 43psi) drawing 11.3A to deliver fuel and remember, on the test bench, that's at low pressure - nothing like 43psi! When the pump is in the fuel circuit and flowing via the fuel pressure regulator the load is going to be increased further.

screwed up...reading actually pulling less than 1 amp bench test...got the point in decimal point in the wrong place.....re checked relay and blew it ..so ordering a new one �70 ...dam it dam it..so fed up ordered a pump as well...will fit both and then we shall see..prior to this i tested the bike again switched it on ..fuse blew...removed relay switched on fuse ok ..put relay back on fuse blew...does this tell you anything?

It probably suggests that the relay was knackered?

If I were you I'd replace the relay first, particularly as it's easy to do, and leave the pump as its is (especially as it seems to be drawing the correct current now). At least then you'll be able to work out which component was/is at fault. If you replace both at the same time and it's cured, then you'll never know which one was causing the trouble.

ok will do thanks...relay cost �47 ...not so bad after all...cheers and again thanks

hi ..relay arrived today fitted it turned on ingnition ..ok then pressed the starter .the fuse blew...i was wondering if i should... try it without the tank fitted..to see if the fuse would blow that would take the pump and fuel level unit out the circuit

Sounds like a plan. No need to remove the tank. Just remove the mounting bolts and lift the back up, propping it up just enough for you to detach the wring connectors on the pump/sender unit underneath.

Try it with the pump disconnected, obviously it won't run, but see if the fuse stays intact...

tank on bench already...i will try it and see
\

ok tried it with the tank away from the bike..switched on ,fuse ok...pressed starter fuse ok....done the same again ..fuse blew upon pressing starter..repeated with another fuse and it also blew....

So, just to clear things up, it's now blowing as soon as you press the starter?

morning...yes with the tank away from the bike...i turn on ignition.fuse holds...switch off ,turn on fuse holds..press starter fuse holds .press again fuse holds .press again fuse blows.......
....another thought maybe i could detach the electrical connector to the injector and like the tank see if a fuse blows with it out of the picture ..not leaving much left on the FI circuit again thank you

tried again today...fuses blew and held sometimes with the injector diconnected some times with connected ...then battery began to weaken with turning over the starter...charged the battery .fuses seemed to be holding..started the bike with tank back on and all connected.. no fuse problem ran the bike for a couple of minutes .stopped and started it and ran it a few times more...then after running the bike for about a minute i gradually revved
it up to 4 k and then the fuse blew...thought i had solved it by some accident but it let me down again...it may be the pump after all...or could it be the regulater ..but would that not blow fuse 4 (i would pull my hair out if i wasnt bald)...returned to bike once more..put in a new fuse ..blew upon turning on ignition and before pressing the starter ...blew another fuse the same way moments later.?????????????????????

It could very well be the fuel pump still. I take it you haven't tried the new one yet?

I know you said you'd checked the wiring, but are you double sure the wiring spur to the injector is good? By the random nature of the problem and the fact you say it worked sometimes and not others with the injector disconnected it sounds like other instances where this wiring has been the problem. It is, as I mention earlier quite a common problem on the Z. The revving of the engine to 4K may be causing an abraded wire to make contact to earth - 3.5 to 4K rpm is after all where the 660 motor vibrates most. You've already checked the output of the alternator and reg/rec unit and it was within spec.

I don't think using a diagnostic tool is necessarily going to be much help with this one, but still may be worth having a go with if you can acesss one.

Try the new pump and go through the wiring again with a fine-tooth comb.

ok will try all of the above....thanks again...