Motty AFR tuner - the PowerCommander killer
 

Hi!
Here (in estonia) we have a bike tuning shop www.dragbike.ee who specialises in rebuilding bikes to extreme.
So what they say, when it comes to modding, is usually true.

They are offering something called AFR tuner, which is 3 times more expensive than PowerCommander, but they claim this it is much better because when it is installed and tuned for your bike, it will keep itself automatically tuned nomatter what you do with your bike later. For example, you are changing your air filter, you are fitting the stage II filter, removing the snorkel, fitting another exhaust etc etc. - and the AFR keeps adjusting itself back to "normal" mode so the AFR ratio is always correct.

They (dragbike dudes) say that for example, on a longer trip, when roads are dusty and air filter doesnt let much air in anymore, AFR automatically adjusts to it, so the mixture wont be too lean (correct me if im wrong here, if not enough air is let in, then it will be too much fuel, correct?).

Here is my question - has anyone ever tested something like this? I have a 07 model XT660R and my first thought was - powercommander cannot be fully tuned because of my 07 ecu, what about this AFR Tuner thingy?
I bet Kev has some kind of answer to this, but if anyone else has something to share, pelase do so.

Chap,

The new recently released PC5 will do the same at approx �275 + a dyno tune, but is only suitable for fuel injected bikes.

Have a read on the Dyno Jet website abt the PC5 - long overdue but will be fitting one very shortly...

WB :)

but as i understand, it is for 2009 and up models only?

It will work fine from 07 onwards with 02 sensor. PCV with auto tune.

Kev you have already tried it?
But how is PC5 compared to PC3 with the 07 version, since PC3 cannot be fully adjusted because of the ECU. Same with PC5?

I have not tried it a PCV with Auto Tune, but have been following the Raptor forum's very closely to see the gains of the new system.

A PCV with Auto tune will be able control of the whole fuelling system on a 07/09 XT660X/R, the Auto tune replaces the XT's narrow band O2 sensor with a wide band O2 sensor to take control of the fuel mapping. The 07/09 XT660X/R ECU's are inter changeable I know this for a fact.

A PCIII does not have Auto tune.

I don't think you understand that a PCV & Auto Tune are two separate devices. A PCV by it's self can not tune the bike automatically you would need to build a fuel map on the dyno the same way as the PCIII is done. Add a Auto Tune to the PCV & the Auto Tune will build a fuel map for you while you ride. The Auto Tune does not work on the PCIII as there is no Can Bus protocol.

http://www.dynojet.com/support.dynoj...VUserGuide.pdf

http://www.powercommander.com/downlo...des/AT-200.pdf

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c5...l/IMG_1802.jpg

I installed my 1st PCV today on a GSXR750 -08 model.

So 1st off, the PCV can work on older model bikes, as long as the connecter are the same as the new model bike. I am convinced that you can make the PCV work on any model XT660. The older models without the O2 sensor will require that you drill a hole in the header pipe and have the bug welded into place. You get the bug with the auto tube unit so most engineering shops can help you with the drilling and welding. Note the Welding needs to be airtight.
There are a lot of new features on the PCV that you don�t get on the PCIII. For example, the unit I work with on the GSXR has engine temperature and gear selection input and some even come with input to detect intake air pressure and so forth. This enables you to run a fuel injection map per gear instead of one map for all gears. On a lot of the modern bikes the ECU delivers different amounts of fuel and ignition timing for each gear and with the PCV you can map the fuel to address problems in specific gears. You can even go as far as making a different map for each gear per cylinder. In other words if you have a 4 cylinder bike with 6 gears you can build 24 different fuel maps and the PCV will know when to use which map without rider input.

Throttle calibration is also a lot better and another feature I like is that you don�t need the bike to be running or use a 9v battery to power the unit. It draws power directly from the USB port now and you can programme the unit without the bike running.

The auto tune unit is another great add on, but in the wrong hands it can cause damage to the bike. The PCV can now increase fuel delivery by up to 200% where the PCIII could only do 100%. If you get things wrong you can drown the motor and cause serious damage. When you run the autotuner, you better get it set up by someone who knows how it works

no my question actually was, would the PC5 with autotune be less adjustable with my 07xt than for example, with a 05xt? You did change your 07 ecu to a 05 one, is it something I should do If i would want to get the most out of PC5+autotune?

There would be no need to change your 07 ECU, the PCV with Auto will do the job. When I changed mine there were no PCV's on the market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freez The auto tune unit is another great add on, but in the wrong hands it can cause damage to the bike....

What setting up does the auto tune need?

It is a bit technical, so I hope I can put this across without boring you all to death here.

It is recommended you start with a custom map on the PCV, made especially for your bike. Then you have to activate the Auto tune unit and update it with the required A/F values you want the unit to maintain. You have to be careful when setting the maximum range the auto tune is allowed to use. The smaller the better as it limits potential problems later on.

You also have to be careful to select the correct RPM limit on the auto tune. It is no good to allow it to tune to the RPM limiter. You also have to activate the correct wait time before it will tune. If it starts tuning to quickly and it makes adjustments while the bike is cold and running with and enriched �choke� map it will cause a mess of things.

If there is any exhaust leak in the header pipe and the o2 sensor gets in contact with the fresh air it will cause a mess. Fresh air will trick the unit into thinking the bike is running lean and add fuel when it does not need to.

A misfiring plug, allowing unburned gasses to pass through the motor will also play havoc with the auto tune and mess up the map big time. Unburned gasses contain high amounts of O2 and it also tricks the Auto tune to think the motor is running lean when it is not.

Note that the auto tune unit does not automatically override the PCV map. It keeps the override values in a separate place. The operator or tuner needs to accept the override values before the map is updated permanently.

I was also told that it is good practise to build a custom map 1st. With that, you can use small tuning ranges to allow the auto tune unit to make minor adjustments. After spending about a week or so riding and building up an "updated' list of values one have to make the changes permanent and then limit the auto tune even more. It is really bad to allow it to make changes of more than say 10 units. If anything goes wrong with the auto tune or the o2 sensor or it gets a fresh air leak from somewhere, you don't want it to add 50% more fuel and cause engine problems.

With a PCIII or PCV by itself, once it has a custom made map, you don�t have to worry too much about the map unless you make changes to the motor. With the auto tune unit, if you get exhaust leaks, o2 sensor failures, misfire on the plug and a bunch more other stuff, it can make a mess of things. There is a bunch of things one has to consider and keep in mind before and while using this auto tune. So, while it gives you a lot of extra features, it also introduces a bunch of potential problems.

what about PC5 without the autotune? is it still better than PCIII for my XT 07?

Well, the PC5 is not massively more expensive than the PCIII.

For the bit extra you get 10 Throttle positions on the PC5 where the PCIII has 9. PC5 also allows you to add 200% more fuel over stock while the PCIII only allows 100%. Most of the time you don’t need more than 100%, unless the motor is heavily modified.

You might decide to add the autotune later, so then again the PC5 is better as the PCIII cannot handle that.

PC5 also have the ability to know what gear you are in, allowing you to make fuel maps per gear which can be useful in some cases.

Personally, if I had to pick from scratch, I would pick the PC5, even if I use it in the same way as a PCIII.

Power Commander III v's Power Commander V
 

Hmmm, the quote is from my newbie hello but I think that this thread already answers most of my questions for a 2008 model.

So it looks like a Power Commander V used without the Auto-Tune option but with a custom map is the best option for me. The dual selectable map's at the handlebar could also be an interesting extension.

However any suggestions as to suitable tuning shops in Melbourne able to handle this work would be especially appreciated.

Hi Pete, Dynojet say 2009 models for the PCV, it should work with 07,08,09 XT models all with O2 sensors.

I deal with Serco directly here in Brisbane they are the agents & importers for all Dynojet products, send them a E-mail & ask them for a recommended dyno tuner in your town. http://www.serco.com.au/contact.htm

I already have the map select function on my PCIII & can select & switch between 5 different fuel maps while riding. I have been using the map selection system for nearly 2 years now, it works a treat.

what I really meant is, PCIII is not fully adjustable with 07 XT, but then PC5 is? I can adjust all rpm with PC5?

Both do the same job on the 07 model without Auto tune, the PCV is upgradeable for the future the PCIII is not. PCV has a greater fuel adjustment range which you would never use unless you are heavily modifying a motor. The PCIII is fully adjustable with a 07 XT660X/R.

I would buy a PCV for the future.

www.off-the-road.de claims that the PC5 fits XT 09 models only and they have mentioned that any older versions need PCIII. I dont know where they got this information. Ok lets say this is incorrect.

If i am going to order a PC5 for my 07 XT, i would need the right connectors, so assuming it is made for 09 model, i can easily mount the same model on my 07?

There is no difference in the injector & TPS between the 07 & 09 models, I have just checked the part numbers for those years they list the same part numbers for both items. So the connectors should be the same.

We know 100% that the 09 XT660X ECU runs on the 07 XT660X, so I can't see why it will not work on the 07 model. No one has tried it but on paper it should work.

Cost of Fitting a PC5 in Australia
 

Kev many thanks for your comments and guidance.

I've followed up with serco and they confirmed that Phil Tainton Racing (who I had already found on the Internet) was a suitable local tuning shop to complete this work.

I've given them a call and they have indicated that rough budget costs would be about $500 to supply and fit the PC5 with another $340 to carry out a dyno session and provide a custom map.

I've got no idea of whether these are reasonable costs or totally over the top for Australia.

Is it advisable to get two maps done at the sample time - one for say open road cruising and the other for high power (off road) conditions ?

I would ask for a discount on the dyno run, they normaly cost around the AUD$250 mark, tell them the XT660.com forum is watching the results & they will hopefully get some more dyno work out of there fuel maps.

by the way, what happens to the lambda sensor, while PC is connected to my bike? It still stays connected to the ECU?

the lambda sensor is removed with the PCIII and PC5. It is replaced by another lambda if you install the auto tune unit.

Just note that the PC5 will allow you to make what the guys here call a basic or advance map. Basic map works like a PCIII map. It applies to all gears and one map is used for everything.

An advance map is made per gear, meaning each gear uses it�s own fuel map. You can even expand this and make a map for each gear, per each piston.

Since the XT only has 1 piston, no point in going further than one map per gear.

The problem is that if you pick advanced maps the dyno tuners have to build 5 different maps instead of one, so this might be why the price is higher.

For example, on some bikes they use different ignition maps for each gear and it is therefore important to build a fuel map to match the ignition timing. On the XT I don�t believe they use different ignition timing per gear, so an advance map might be a waste of time on the XT.

If you go for the auto tune, might as well go for the advance map.

You said that IF i install the autotune unit. What if i dont? What happens to the lambda then? It will just be eliminated?

Correct, Eliminated.